Scoop Sweeney 00:03 - 00:21 Journalist and author Chris Tomlinson joins the Plutopia podcast this time as we discuss his coverage of the July 4th floods in central Texas Chris also explains why he sees democracy threatened by unprecedented attempts to rig our elections. Chris Tomlinson 00:22 - 01:18 We are in dangerous times. And I. Feel like I rub my bosses the wrong way when I keep trying to make this point that we are in far more perilous times than most Americans realize. I'm as soon as I get off with you, I'm going to file my column about redistricting that will be online tomorrow. You know, it's this is fundamental democracy stuff going on now. And if we keep losing journalism and we keep losing independence and we keep allowing the election elections to be rigged through how we draw the political maps. Then we're in serious trouble. Jon Lebkowsky 01:18 - 02:54 Hey everybody, welcome to the Plutopia podcast. I'm Jon Lebkowsky and my co-hosts are Scoop Sweeney and Wendy Grossman. And we release a podcast episode pretty much every week. And today we have an excellent guest, someone I've known for years, and a really great journalist, Chris Tomlinson. Chris writes currently, he writes commentary about money, politics, and life in Texas for the Houston Chronicle and Hearst newspapers But he also has written books, including Tomlinson Hill, The Remarkable Story of Two Families Who Share the Tomlinson name: one white, one black. That's kind of a long title. And then he co-wrote another one, Forget the Alamo: The Rise and Fall of an American Myth, which completely. Blew my mind about the Alamo. And recently, Chris covered the historic July 4th flood in South Texas. And wrote, you did some really excellent reporting about that. And that's one thing that we kind of want to lead with today in discussing it. It's like, Chris, you're. I mean, you wrote, you presented a kind of grim picture of a grim event, really, and it seemed to be a preventable disaster. But at what point did you realize that this was Really, a different level of flood event from what we've had before. Chris Tomlinson 02:55 - 03:51 I think the scale of the disaster was apparent very quickly. When you just looked at the damage that was done, the size and the scale of The water flowing down the Guadalupe River. But the one thing I've learned as a journalist for the last 30 years is that, you know, all of this is predictable. You know, I mean, Someone's thought about it. Someone chose not to do something. In all my time covering earthquakes, volcanoes, tsunamis, Floods, snowstorms, it was always anticipated. And I think as a journalist The first thing you have to do is cut through the political nonsense that somehow an event was unprecedented or unpredictable. Wendy Grossman 03:52 - 04:06 That reminds me of a book written by Jesse Singer called There Are No Accidents. And that's very much the point she makes, that all these things that we call accidents, actually somebody made a policy or didn't make a policy, or there were choices involved Chris Tomlinson 04:06 - 04:37 Yeah, in the case of the Guadalupe, I very quickly within a couple of hours found a document from the U. S. Geological Survey. that was predicting 20% higher rainfall in rain bomb events in that portion of the Guadalupe River due to climate change. And that came out in 2019. So it was, yeah, six years warning. We had six years of warning before it that that storm finally hit. Jon Lebkowsky 04:38 - 05:00 And now what we're hearing is that we shouldn't be playing the blame game. And, you know, to my mind, it's not a game. You know, it's accountability. Has anybody have you seen anybody ready to take accountability for what happened? Absolutely not. Chris Tomlinson 05:01 - 06:02 Yeah, no one's accepting responsibility. Take it all the way back to Kerr County, and we look at the county commissioners who in 2016 saw the massive flooding that destroyed Wimberly. And thought to themselves, this can happen here. We need to do something. You know, even they are saying, oh, well, it's not our fault. It's the voters' fault. We could have never passed. A tax hike. We could have never spent the money out of the county budget to put in warning sirens. So, you know. You go from that to this last legislative session where lawmakers asked for $500 million for emergency alert systems in the event of disasters. And Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick had that bill killed in the Senate Finance Committee. So, yeah, no, everyone's pointing fingers. No one's taking responsibility. Jon Lebkowsky 06:03 - 06:08 And it does feel like it would be a state thing. I just thought it would be a state responsibility. Scoop Sweeney 06:08 - 06:30 Yeah, and state responsibility is sometimes thing. And in Texas politics, the way things are like this are generally addressed is They take this approach: it's their fault. It's never our fault or my fault. It's always someone else, and no one ever seems to be able to resolve that. Chris Tomlinson 06:31 - 07:32 It's almost by design, right? Because you have these counties, these rural counties, that are controlled usually by a small clique of politicians that You know, are basically the county bosses, and they're making all these decisions. And rarely are they challenged in the political primaries, and so therefore they automatically win in the general election. At the state level, no one wants to raise taxes, no one wants to spend money, no one wants to acknowledge that something bad may happen and we should prepare for it. So they don't. And the blame game, you know, is one of the pieces I wrote, the headline was Blame It on the Rain. Was you just wait for it to happen. And then you blame God, and then you do something, maybe a little bit, probably half-ass, to address any future disaster. Jon Lebkowsky 07:32 - 07:37 And God says, it's not my fault. I gave you sirens. You could have put them in there. Chris Tomlinson 07:38 - 07:42 I gave you the USGS to warn you that this was coming. Jon Lebkowsky 07:42 - 07:42 Yeah. Wendy Grossman 07:44 - 07:50 I think that was Singer's point in her book, that when you call something an accident, you're saying nothing could be done to prevent it. Chris Tomlinson 07:51 - 08:41 Exactly. Singer. I did not read Singer's book. I did. I have read reviews of it. And it's, yeah, there's no such thing as an accident If you build a two-ton car that can go 70 miles an hour, it is perfectly predictable what will happen if that car hits a human being or hits a wall People who've lived along the Guadalupe know that they live in Flash Flood Alley. I grew up learning about Flash Floods when I was camping with my grandparents You know, very early on, that this was a very dangerous part of the world. Jimmy Ray Stevie Ray Vaughan wrote songs about flooding down in Texas. You know, this is not a mystery. Jon Lebkowsky 08:42 - 08:58 You know, somebody pointed out that The closest thing to FEMA we seem to have after the flood was HEB because HEB sort of swooped in and brought all kinds of flood relief. But did FEMA do anything meaningful afterwards? Chris Tomlinson 08:59 - 10:28 I mean, FEMA took in applications for aid. It's interesting how The Texas Department of Emergency Management has kind of been leading the conservative wave against FEMA. If you'll recall during Hurricane Beryl, Governor Abbott was out of state. Dan Patrick was in, was the acting governor. Hurricane Beryl hit And the White House, Joe Biden's White House, was asking, you know, where is the declaration of emergency? Where is the request for FEMA And we initially called out Dan Patrick saying, you know, what an idiot. You know, you're hurting the people of Houston. And then he and Nim Kidd, the head of Texas Department of Emergency Management, came in and said, No, that's not how we operate anymore. You know, we come first. We have stockpiles, we have men, we have equipment, we have women, we have people who can come and Provide relief, and then we send a bill to FEMA and get paid back for it. And that is the way Texas has evolved. And I think this is the model for doing away with FEMA in the future. The question is whether or not smaller states with less money will be able to do what Texas does. Jon Lebkowsky 10:28 - 11:13 Whether any states will do an adequate job. And I should mention, Wendy pointed out I said that HEB was the closest thing to FEMA. HEB is a Texas grocery chain It's one of the greatest grocery chains in the world. I mean, they have the logistics of delivering or managing grocery operations down to a real science. And they were actually, you know, able to bring their logistical capabilities to bear on this particular event and show up with I think all kinds of like food and relief. Chris Tomlinson 11:16 - 12:39 This is part of HEB's brand. Charles Butts has made disaster relief and community engagement Part of the company's brand, and it makes good sense. I did a story once where I interviewed the emergency response people at HEB, and we talked about why. they have installed one megawatt natural gas powered backup generators at most of their grocery stores and how they plan to install them at all stores. And one of the things they told me was in Houston they had an outage With a Randall's next door, they kicked in their generators. They stayed online throughout the power outage. All the people from the community was in the summer, so they all went and hung out in the frozen food aisle to cool down because they didn't have air conditioning at home. The HEB people said they saw a 10% jump in revenue permanently for that location. And they literally took customers away from Randall's by being available, by having these emergency responses. So this is an important part of their brand. It's not just out of the goodness of their heart. They they know that it adds to their reputation and adds customers. Wendy Grossman 12:39 - 12:48 Isn't this like Mattress Mack? Isn't he in Houston? Jim Mackinvale with the furniture store, who lets when there's been crises, lets people sleep on the beds? Chris Tomlinson 12:48 - 12:52 Yes, exactly. Mattress Mack does the same thing with his furniture store. Wendy Grossman 12:52 - 13:02 I'm talking about him because he's a tennis guy. And he's famous, and he sort of was famous already in the tennis world because I think he ran the Houston tournament for a while. Chris Tomlinson 13:02 - 13:47 Yeah, I think that's true. He's also a notorious gambler. He promises to anyone who spends more than, I think it's $5,000 or $10,000. In one of his storm stores, if the Astros win the World Series, they get their money back. And so every year so he's paid out millions, but every year he goes to Vegas and lays this huge bet. On the World Series to hedge against potential losses. He's also a trumpster. Mattress Mack is also a notorious For his support of Donald Trump. Jon Lebkowsky 13:47 - 13:51 So that's a little bit. Chris Tomlinson 13:51 - 13:52 Exactly. Jon Lebkowsky 13:53 - 15:09 I have an anecdote about HEV to throw in. Years, many, many years ago, when I was working in poverty programs, we were working on a food drive and a woman who was working with me on that food drive said, don't you think the groceries would would maybe be able to throw in something like maybe they've got stuff that they've pulled off the shelves and and she said I'm gonna call HEB and and ask them and she called and they said oh hey yeah we can help you there. And they asked us, you know, to come over to this place. I think it was behind one of their stores. And they had these huge, massive containers that were filled to the brim with all kinds of products that were near the expiration date that they had pulled off the shelves. And they said, you want this? And the next thing you know, our food drive became a massive success. And I think that led to the creation of the Austin Food Bank, actually, where they started. Formalizing, you know, taking that food and making it available. So the HEB is They're kind of amazing folks. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in. Chris Tomlinson 15:09 - 15:25 Well, and also the thing that remember about HEB is it's privately held. It's mostly still owned by the Butts family And they don't have to answer to shareholders or Wall Street analysts. That's one of the reasons why they can do what they do. Jon Lebkowsky 15:27 - 15:28 Wendy, did you have something? Wendy Grossman 15:30 - 16:03 Well, not um I've never done the kind of reporting that you would have to do to report on floods. And I think probably people are interested in what are the the mechan not exactly the mechanics, but the mechanics of ha h how do you how do you go ab about being on on location? And so on. What what what do you do how do you have to take care of yourself while you're trying to get the story? Chris Tomlinson 16:04 - 16:57 It's not as difficult as you might think. You know, there's a saying among foreign correspondents, which I used to be one, is you don't know unless you go. You know, you've got to go and you've got to look and see with your own two eyes to understand what's happening. The thing about a flood is that it usually, the flood water. Extends at most a couple hundred yards across, which means outside of that floodplain, everything's fine. The restaurants still operate. The grocery store still works. The hotels are still there. You don't get a power outage like you would from a hurricane or from a tornado. So it's actually a very easy natural disaster to cover. Wendy Grossman 16:58 - 17:39 That's really interesting because when you see it, but Yeah. I mean, when you see the pictures on television, it looks like every place everything's awash. But th that was the that was the same thing with the LA fires, was you know, I was I was c corresponding with a niece of mine who lives there. And the fire wasn't actually all that close to her, but it was sort of creeping closer, and she could see the glow over the horizon. But meanwhile, the newspapers are reporting as though all of Los Angeles is on fire. Or that when the riots were happening, it was a couple of blocks around the Federal building, but everybody thought it wu you know, people don't understand the scale of Los Angeles. And it's got to be something like that in Texas as well, because Texas so is so enormous. Chris Tomlinson 17:39 - 18:47 You know, I covered nine wars for the Associated Press, and the thing about it's the same thing. You know, you can drive for 30 minutes. away from the front line and everything gets to normal very, very quickly. It's difficult to strike that balance of Showing how destructive that water was and how devastating it was to a group of people. Without diminishing the pain and the suffering and the death and the destruction that it caused by putting it within the larger context of Texas. You know, the idea of someone in Dallas marking themselves safe from the Guadalupe floods on Facebook, you know, it's yes, that's absurd. But it's. You know, it's a challenge to kind of keep the context, but also still reflect the pain. Wendy Grossman 18:47 - 19:34 Yeah, yeah, I I learned about the rivers of Texas from the s from the old Weavers song. So, you know well, it's an old traditional song that they sang But but I got a sense of that. The first time I got a sense of that, that that these these are pockets of disaster in sort of a a pond of normality Was right after the EUF referendum vote in in twenty sixteen, and there's all this stuff going on in the papers and all this stuff in politics, and we're at a conference, you know, someplace. And one of the one I think he was from Spain or someplace. And he said, I don't understand. How are we all sitting here just having lunch when there's all this stuff going on? And I said, Well, apparently that's what happens in disasters is people go on having lunch. Trying to just get through the day, you know. Chris Tomlinson 19:35 - 19:37 I mean, people are remarkably resilient. Wendy Grossman 19:37 - 19:39 Yeah, really. Jon Lebkowsky 19:42 - 20:07 You mentioned covering wars for AP and one thing I was wondering about is How, I mean, right now you're mostly covering Texas. You're covering one state, but you've done global coverage before. How does the kind of work that you do now covering Texas compare to The sort of broader global reporting that you were doing before? Chris Tomlinson 20:08 - 22:52 I mean, when I was a younger man, 20 years ago, You know, it was fairly easy to go out on patrol with 19-year-old soldiers in Mosul or in Ramadi, Iraq, or go to Tora Bora or South Sudan. I mean, these are the places. that I worked. I mean, I got to I can give you a tour of Mogadishu someday. I got to know that city so well. It's What's interesting is that drama or intrepidness does not always translate into a journalistic value. I think when I look at today as a Houston Chronicle writer, I've got a dashboard that I know I can look at. where I know what every single person on our website is reading at any moment. I can tell you at what point in the story they click away from it. And two things I can promise you is that readers of newspapers want real news. They want real journalism. They don't want clickbait. Clickbait actually. Does no good for a newspaper. It doesn't make people want to subscribe. It doesn't want people to make people want to come back. Sure, you can get a couple of hundred thousand clicks on a story, but if the average time on page is two seconds and it doesn't convert any subscribers, it doesn't do any good, right? It doesn't accomplish anything. So people want real news, people who are willing to pay for it, and people who want to educate themselves. They want real journalism. They're not that interested in foreign journalism. They want to know what's happening in their community, in their city, in their state. They want to read about things that are going to affect their lives. You know, real estate. Roads and bridges, business, the economy, jobs, layoffs, these are the things that people really value from journalists. Now I will say that the disaster in Kerrville, we had triple the normal number of readers for about five day And the stories that did best were the accountability stories, where we explain who knew what, when, and where did it all fall apart And also the deeply personal stories about individuals who lost their lives or lost loved ones or had some harrowing experience. Wendy Grossman 22:55 - 23:14 I don't know. You know, as somebody who lives outside the United States, it's very disappointing that people aren't interested in foreign news because things that happen in other parts of the world do affect people in the States. States. And the things people in the States do affect foreign countries, especially, because that's why everybody follows the American elections. Chris Tomlinson 23:16 - 23:32 Yeah, but I mean, America, but I know a lot of Africans and a lot of Europeans who When 99% of their news consumption is local and regional news as well. Americans aren't the only ones who are very corroborated. Wendy Grossman 23:32 - 24:03 I was by no means saying that, but. I mean, Britain, you kind of have to I mean, Britain would like to believe that it's the center of the universe and that it needs not consider anyone el But the reality is that even while not being a member of the European Union, things that go on in the European Union do directly affect Britain. And they may not be interested, but they should be. And I I know you don't get anywhere in journalism by saying, but they should know this. Chris Tomlinson 24:03 - 24:06 The eat your vegetables approach never works. Wendy Grossman 24:06 - 24:11 No. But unfortunately, we really do need people to eat their vegetables. Jon Lebkowsky 24:12 - 24:28 I kind of think there's a temptation, it seems to me, in journalism to get a little more clickbaity and bury the lead a little bit more so that people have to go deeper into the story before they Get the meat of it. Do you see that? Chris Tomlinson 24:29 - 25:14 Oh, no. If you bearing the lead, people will click away. They if they if they if you don't tell that I mean, that's when I started out, that was the big beautiful thing is you wrote the really kind of slow burn lead You know, with lots of color up top and maybe a quote, and then four or five graphs in, you tell the reader what this story is going to be about. Online, you've got to let them know in the first sentence. You've got to hook them in that first sentence and then hold on to them for dear life because they are looking for a reason to click away. And you can't delay any gratification. Scoop Sweeney 25:18 - 26:02 Yeah, well back in a previous lifetime, I worked in radio news in Dallas and Houston and San Francisco. And in those days Station managers really didn't want a nice reasoned exposition. They wanted it screaming and yelling, and every story had to be a disaster. or presented like it was a disaster. And I was thrilled to get out of that kind of thing and got into a new service. Do you find that still being a managerial thing of no matter what the story is, they really want it to be dramatic? Chris Tomlinson 26:02 - 27:45 I think that's still true of broadcast, whether it's television or radio. Today in print journalism, we are increasingly reliant on the subscriber for our income. So we know that display advertising, ads and papers, especially in the print product Plummeting, it goes down about 16% every year, and there will, it's nearing the bottom now But it's going to bottom out at much lower than what we would like. So the way we make up for that lost revenue is through subscriptions. And so anyone who subscribes to a newspaper knows that it's suddenly very expensive to subscribe to a newspaper compared to the old days. So we are profoundly focused on developing a relationship with the subscriber, with the reader. We know that if they come back More than five times a month, they are more likely to keep their subscription, their monthly subscription, and keep paying us. And we need that money to do our jobs. So This is why I have that dashboard. This is why, at the end of every month, my boss sits down with me and we go through which one of my columns did very well, which ones did poorly. We talk about why we think they did well or why they did poorly. And we agree that we're going to do even better next month in retaining those readers. Wendy Grossman 27:46 - 28:00 Is there ever a point where like is there some threshold below which if you're all your columns drop below it for a month or two, they start talking about You know, less money for you? Chris Tomlinson 28:02 - 30:10 Well, you know, I am a full-time employee with a set salary. You know, in 11 years, I've been able to meet or exceed expectations. So I honestly don't know what would happen. But there are times that we've had reporters assigned to a specific beat. And, you know, it's kind of remarkable to me You have to ask yourself the question, is the problem the beat that the reporter is covering, or is the problem the reporter? And so sometimes we'll move a reporter to a different beat to see if they'll do better, or we help that reporter rethink their beat. to do that coverage better. And it's you know, there have been times in which immigration has been a real loser for our paper. There was almost no interest, and we couldn't understand why, because it was ranking so well, so highly in political polling to being an important issue. And we realized we were just covering it wrong. Instead of covering these daily turner-the screw kind of developments, what we really needed was to do In-depth accountability reporting, fewer stories, but higher quality, higher impact stories. And once we made that shift, our immigration reporter became, won a bunch of national awards and went on to work for ProPublica, one of the most prestigious news organizations. So yeah, I mean, I think if I had several months of bad columns, my columns were performing poorly, then we would have that conversation. Is the problem What I'm writing about, or is it how I'm writing? And we would do some experimentation to see if we could get the numbers back up. Jon Lebkowsky 30:11 - 30:47 So the Hearst organization is Big. It owns a lot of newspapers. There are some other organizations that are also big and own a lot of newspapers and are said to be kind of running local news Organizations into the ground, you know, basically letting them die. It sounds like Hearst is a different sort of operation, which would be good for us because they just bought the Statesman here in Austin But is that true of Hearst, that most of its properties are run pretty much the way a newspaper should be run? Chris Tomlinson 30:48 - 31:05 Yes, and I think that's because we started as a newspaper company 150 years ago. You know, we are named after William Randolph Hearst, the man who famously started the Spanish-American War with his yellow journalism. Wendy Grossman 31:06 - 31:08 And who was covered in the movie Citizen Kane? Chris Tomlinson 31:09 - 33:28 I was going to say who the film Citizen Kane is based on. Today, Hearst is still owned by the Family Foundation. It's still family-owned. We don't have shareholders. We don't sell stock. But 80% of the business is non-newspapers. It's financial information. B2B information, its software, but only about 18-19% of Hearst's revenue comes from its newspapers. The Houston Chronicle being the largest, and the San Francisco Chronicle being the second largest. However, because that's in our DNA, because we don't have to worry about shareholders, we are committed to doing good journalism Now the Houston Chronicle has only lost money for one out of the last hundred years, and that was during COVID. We do not generate a massive profit for the corporation, but we do generate a profit that we send to New York every year. We bought the Statesman, Austin American Statesman, because we believe we can triple its digital subscriptions and we can double its print subscriptions. Based on the demographics and based on the fact that Gannett, which is owned by a private equity company, was basically just Sucking fees out of it. They weren't interested in journalism. They were interested in getting a return on their investment. They had outbid us. Seven years ago, when we first tried to buy the Statesman, they've made their money back, and now they're willing to sell us the Husk. We're ready we've taken on that Husk. We've already hired seven new journalists. and we are going to list more jobs very soon. We also just announced that we're purchasing the Dallas Morning News. which is a family owned newspaper. The family the family is ready to get out, and we offered them two hundred and forty percent above their stock price to take it private. Wendy Grossman 33:29 - 34:11 And so it sounds a little like The Guardian. I I used to write quite a lot for The Guardian, and it's owned by a trust, you know, and so it's It's kind of it's it still has to make money, but its mission in life is not to make money for shareholders, but you know, to do I think for a while they wanted to be the world's leading liberal voice, something like that. And uh I think it does change things. I've come to appreciate things like the BBC and The Guardian, where they're not just in business for corporate profits. Chris Tomlinson 34:11 - 34:14 Right. And also, we don't have any debt. Wendy Grossman 34:14 - 34:17 I mean, it's actually pretty easy. Chris Tomlinson 34:19 - 34:23 It's actually pretty easy to make money at a newspaper if you don't have any debt. Wendy Grossman 34:25 - 34:28 Actually, that's true. That's true of individual lives, too. Scoop Sweeney 34:30 - 35:06 The problem with a lot of American businesses, but particularly media is that the involvement of venture capital has pretty much destroyed many of these formerly great organizations. including newspapers, just because their goal is not to create a valuable business, but it's to mine the profits as much as they can and then eventually sell off the rotting husk of the company. Chris Tomlinson 35:06 - 36:07 No, that's right. And that's I mean, not all venture capital does that. Not all private equity does that. But a lot of it does. And, you know, when you're looking at, if you're in private equity and you're looking at businesses that are dying. And if you take it as a given that, that business is going to die. So, how can I wind it up in a way where I make the maximum amount of money? You know, that's legitimate business. There's nothing wrong with that. I think when it begins to take over an entire industry that is a public trust, like journalism. It's very dangerous for democracy. And that's why I'm personally proud to work for Hearst, which is committed. to keeping journalism and democracy alive. Jon Lebkowsky 36:08 - 36:30 Have you any thoughts about what might be done to save like the really small local newspapers that are struggling are the ones that are currently being Sort of mind to nothing by private equity firms, that sort of thing. I mean, how do we save journalism? That's the real question. Chris Tomlinson 36:30 - 37:01 Well, you know, a lot of those You know, I think Hearst owns like, I think it's 48 now weekly papers in small towns around Texas. That are all kind of spin-offs of either the Houston Chronicle, the San Antonio Express News, or the Austin American Statesman. I think when we buy Dallas, we will operate almost all the printing presses for newsprint in Texas Speaker 5 37:02 - 37:07 Um it's kind of alarming in a way. My he I mean, yeah, it is. Chris Tomlinson 37:07 - 38:16 Um You know, because we also own Beaumont, Beaumont Enterprise, Laredo Morning Times, Midland Reporter, Telegraph, Plainview Herald. My column appears in all of those. It's alarming when you think of it as in the old world where every town had two newspapers and three TV stations. and there may be six radio stations and zero Internet. But today you have something like a billion hours Of content added to the internet every day for every hour that you and I have to live. And so I'm As a newspaper journalist, I'm no longer competing with the Houston Post, which was the old competitor to the Houston Chronic I'm not competing with newspapers anymore. I'm competing with YouTube. Speaker 5 38:16 - 38:18 Like the number one source of news. Chris Tomlinson 38:19 - 39:11 The number one source of news for Houstonians today is YouTube. That's where I'm competing. I'm competing with TV stations. I'm competing with public radio. And so it makes sense. to do a rap to do a roll-up of newspapers where you can have a certain level of economy of scale in Back office in ad sales, in printing, because that's the only way that you're going to compete with YouTube and network television, and frankly, the New York Times. New York Times is tripling the number of journalists they have in Texas to compete directly with us. They just advertised for a Texas editor. Jon Lebkowsky 39:11 - 39:13 I'm surprised. Chris Tomlinson 39:14 - 39:30 You know, because that's, you know, we're competing with the Wall Street Journal. You know, the. It's still a very competitive environment, even though you have one corporation buying up all these properties? Wendy Grossman 39:31 - 40:54 Yeah, I think that's interesting because the other thing that I think about is that it's I think the cor the corporate business model of journalism is very much under threat, but I'm not convinced that journalism is because there are lots of different ways to be a journalist that didn't used to exist. NGOs have journalists working for them and researching particular topics. Some academics do the kind of work that journalists used to do. But also, you have, I mean, I don't know of anything comparable in the US, but for example, there are a couple of cooperatives in Britain, one is in Bristol and one is in Scotland, that set up an investigative newspaper. The Scottish one is called The Ferret, and they cover Scottish they do investigative reporting about Scotland in Scotland. And it's a cooperative, it's membership owned, and it seems to do a very good job. And there are things like that. You know, j people who used to make money in journalism are now running Substacks and other kinds of electronic newsletters. or or they're doing YouTube channels. I mean, you know, there there are a lot y you know, I think newspapers have had a really tough time, and is so have magazines. But and so is television these days. But at the same time, there's journalism happening all around us in these weird little i what we need is to figure out how we decide what we can trust. Chris Tomlinson 40:55 - 41:42 No, I think that's exactly right. I mean, this is how John and I met back in 2008, was talking about finding a business plan to support journalism. And in some cases, the nonprofit model where you raise money from foundations works. There are nonprofit journalism organizations that are profoundly corrupt. because they serve the needs of their donors. You know, I am very leery of these nonprofits hiring Journalists to promote the work and the causes that they care about, and passing that off as some sort of independent journalistic undertaking. Wendy Grossman 41:42 - 41:43 quite what I was thinking of. Chris Tomlinson 41:43 - 41:45 I was thinking. Wendy Grossman 41:46 - 42:17 That does happen. But what I was more thinking of was the kind of thing where, about ten years ago, Privacy International had somebody working for them. And he went off to study corporate the Western companies' export of surveillance technologies to oppressive regimes And he did it by going to industry shows and seeing what the companies were telling their shareholders and seeing what they were demonstrating and that kind of thing. I mean, that's cla a cl a classical form of journalism. But he happened to be doing it for Privacy International. Jon Lebkowsky 42:19 - 42:34 You know, one thing that's worth mentioning here is your old stomping ground, the Texas Observer, died and was resuscitated within a week. That's a great story, you know. Speaker 5 42:34 - 42:37 I mean, they laid everybody off. Jon Lebkowsky 42:37 - 42:48 They said, we're putting it to rest. We're not going to have the Texas Observer anymore. And within the next week, they raised $300,000, and Texas Observer was back, and it's still there. Wendy Grossman 42:48 - 42:50 I was watching that on Mastodon. Jon Lebkowsky 42:50 - 42:51 Yeah. Chris Tomlinson 42:51 - 44:57 Yeah, it's I mean, one of the reasons I was the managing editor there, one of the reasons why I left was because of the board. The board has The board was a group of Molly Ivan's drinking buddies who were more interested in continuing to have their weekly cocktails than they were in fundraising or actually doing the job of a nonprofit board. So wouldn't Molly Ivans have been ashamed of them? you would think but yeah I'm so glad the staff had an uprising and found a new board and You know, it's all about the business model. You know, and there are an infinite number of business models you can rely on, and sometimes they'll succeed, sometimes they'll fail. I mean, we're looking at what's happening with the Washington Post and the LA Times with their billionaire benefactors are both turned MAGA, and now the papers are Definitely lesser than they used to be. So I don't think having a billionaire benefactor is the right answer or the only answer The Houston landing was an attempt by critics, billionaire critics of the Houston Chronicle to set up a nonprofit newsroom in Houston to compete with us. That they went through $20 million in two years and only to fold. I shudder to think how that money could have been better used. So yeah, but you've got the Texas Tribune that's going strong. So yeah, it's really going to be not, there's not one single answer, and not one answer is always going to work Scoop Sweeney 44:57 - 45:59 When I was working radio in your city, Houston, I was news director at KPFT, the Pacifica station, when it got bombed a couple of times from the Klan. And we had to go on strike because their board of directors decided we weren't enough like Berkeley. They wanted us to be Berkeley in Houston, Texas. No one could even imagine how you would do that. You know, some people tried and it was horrifying, but we had to actually go on strike, and that got corrected, but still. Public broadcasting and particularly listener-sponsored broadcasting like Pacifica really has had a hard time surviving. Because there's just so much competition out there for, you know, just the dollars that are available for people that want to express a different view of the news. Chris Tomlinson 46:01 - 47:04 Agreed. You know, I go on KPFT now about once a quarter. You know, I'm on Dwayne Bradley's show on Monday nights. You know, it's I mean, nonprofits have a hard time finding good managers and having a disciplined management. And that's true of whether it's an aid group or a radio station When I was I spent 11 years in Africa, I covered a lot of non of NGOs, a lot of nonprofits, and it does seem to be something that they struggle with. So, yeah, I'm, you know, and of course, if you try to apply that kind of private sector for-profit discipline in a nonprofit. You're just, you're considered out of the culture. So it's tough. It's tough striking these balances and finding the right leaders for the right organization. Jon Lebkowsky 47:05 - 49:23 I was thinking more about like you mentioned Bezos owning the Washington Post. And I think there's an issue there that's kind of similar to the thing with Paramount CBS. right now and probably the LA Times and others. Not just that they may seem to be leaning toward MAGA, but that they're doing it because They're like people with a lot of interests, money interests, that are affected by the government and can be affected in terrible ways by certain kinds of government action that The president could order, and they have good reason to fear the president. Actions that he might take, knowing kind of he is of the mindset that he's willing to punish people who are not aligned with him. and would readily try to take these people down. And it would affect not just the people themselves, but whole huge operations that they have and employees and so forth. So I see that that is the problem of having like a billionaire or some kind of large entity that depends on The government's cooperation in order to do something that they have to do. And if you have someone in government who doesn't have the kind of scruples that they, you know, who would readily go after somebody like that, then they kind of they kind of have to back off. So they kind of have to Like where the Washington Post is concerned, they have to kind of go easier on Trump because Trump could really damage. not just them, but this whole huge operation that is connected to Bezos. Chris Tomlinson 49:25 - 50:18 No, that's true. I mean, Bezos is still the chairman of the board of Amazon. He holds the Washington Post separately and privately, and it's not part of Amazon. However, as the chairman of the board, he has a fiduciary responsibility To act in the best interest of shareholders and to maximize shareholder value. And so if he's running a newspaper that's printing things, that's causing the President to punish Amazon in all the myriad of ways, including government contracting, that Amazon Web Services provides to the government, then Bezos has an obligation to tell the paper to back off. And this is the problem of mixing up These things. Jon Lebkowsky 50:18 - 50:47 Yeah, but then there's also the question of the New York Times. They seem to be going soft on the president and his people, too. And I can't really quite figure that out. And sometimes you'll find a story that is really critical of the president, but the headline on that story is kind of like a misleading headline that softens it somewhat That's weird seeing that from the New York Times because I don't think they have the same concerns. Chris Tomlinson 50:48 - 51:35 No, I don't think They do. I I they're far more concerned with trying to preserve a reputation for independence and for objective objectivity, which I don't quite understand. You know, I'm a columnist now, so I'm paid to have an opinion. I get to have as many opinions as I want, and everything that I do is clearly labeled commentary and opinion. However, my newsroom colleagues take a lot of heat for some of the things I write and do, even though they have nothing to do with it. Wendy Grossman 51:36 - 51:41 So do you ever follow the account the New York Times pitch bot? Chris Tomlinson 51:41 - 51:41 Yes. Wendy Grossman 51:42 - 51:57 It used to be on Twitter and it's on CNN. And I ju I find I find it sometimes just absolutely hilarious as as as satire of stories that you cannot believe the New York Times actually published. Chris Tomlinson 51:59 - 52:42 I mean, yes, we let me go back to where I started with all this. We're trying to get subscribers, right? We're trying to maximize the number of people. who pay us every month to get our news. At Hearst, we know that if we add so many subscribers, we get to add so many reporters. So we we have a motivation to try to get as many people to pay for our product as possible in the interest of good journalism. And whenever Whenever you have an incentive structure, you have the opportunity for a farce. Scoop Sweeney 52:43 - 53:06 Well, when you before you moved to the Chronicle, you were with the Associated Press and President Trump and his pals decided they were not worthy of admittance to the press room Did you ever imagine when you were there that that would something like that would actually happen to the Associated Press? Chris Tomlinson 53:09 - 54:21 No, but then again, I never imagined we would have an authoritarian president either, who would win an election not only once, but twice. Um so we are in dangerous times. Um and I Feel like I rub my bosses the wrong way when I keep trying to make this point: that we are in far more perilous times than most Americans realize. I'm as soon as I get off with you, I'm going to file my column about redistricting that will be online tomorrow. You know, it's this is fundamental democracy stuff going on now. And if we keep losing journalism and we keep losing independence and we keep allowing the elections to be rigged through how we draw the political maps, then we're in serious trouble. Jon Lebkowsky 54:21 - 54:23 Has anybody threatened you? Chris Tomlinson 54:24 - 54:39 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's just part of the that's just that's just you know, part of the wallpaper now. It is perfectly acceptable to threaten journalists. Wendy Grossman 54:40 - 54:45 You mean people think it's perfectly acceptable. It's not really acceptable. Chris Tomlinson 54:45 - 54:59 Well, I would think not. But yeah, it's you know, and I don't get nearly the flack that my colleagues who are women or people of color get. They get it much worse than I do. Jon Lebkowsky 55:00 - 55:09 Man. I want to move, but I don't know where I can move. I had that conversation. No place to go. Wendy Grossman 55:09 - 55:26 As an expatriate, I had that conversation with another expatriate. And he said this. He said, well, he said, I think we should bet on the democracy that's lasted a thousand years. Which means we should go on living in London. Chris Tomlinson 55:30 - 56:08 You know, I I was a soldier once. I spent seven years in the Army. I joined when I was 17. And You know, having taken an oath to protect and uphold the Constitution, you know, I'm digging in for the fight. I'm not giving up. I loved living. I spent 16 years living overseas, both as a soldier and as a journalist. But I think I think instead of playing, we have to stand and fight. Wendy Grossman 56:09 - 56:16 I can only say that I'm moving for season 1981. So, you know, I I didn't flee Trump. Chris Tomlinson 56:16 - 56:18 No, of course not. Of course not. Wendy Grossman 56:18 - 56:35 I wouldn't have to do that. But I didn't flee Reagan either. Because I felt the same way you do, that you know, if everybody if you expect people to tolerate your choice of president, then you have to be willing to tolerate their choice of president. Jon Lebkowsky 56:37 - 56:39 I'm having a little trouble with that. Wendy Grossman 56:39 - 56:45 Well, I had a little trouble with it too over the years, but I mean, that is the principle, isn't it? Jon Lebkowsky 56:48 - 57:31 You know, when a president is elected in a free and fair election, I feel better about it than if I feel that the president was elected with somebody's vast thumb on a big scale, you know? And I kind of feel that way about the current administration. I don't think that it was a completely free and fair election. That put them there. And I worry that we'll never see another free and fair election. What do you think, Chris? Chris Tomlinson 57:33 - 57:53 You know, I think we will. As someone who's written two books about the history of Texas, I can tell you that we have been in these times before. Both in the 1880s and in the 1920s. And we survived them and we came out stronger. And I think we will again if we make the effort. Jon Lebkowsky 57:54 - 58:07 You know, before I had wanted to talk to you about Forget the Alamo, and just real quickly, I mean, we're running out of time, but why was that battle fought, really? Chris Tomlinson 58:09 - 58:48 Because Jimbury was too sick and drunk to leave. And when they should have, when Sam Houston gave the order. And William Barrett Travis was too much of a racist to believe Juan Seguin when he was warned that That Santa was a day's march away. And so they allowed themselves to be encircled. And even in 1836, The tactics of warfare meant that once you were encircled, you were doomed. Jon Lebkowsky 58:48 - 58:53 The whole battle lasted 45 minutes. Is it true that slavery was an issue there? Chris Tomlinson 58:54 - 59:11 Slavery was the issue of the Texas Revolution. The Texas Revolution was a colonial racist exercise Both against the brown people who were in charge of Mexico and to maintain the enslavement of the blacks in Texas Jon Lebkowsky 59:11 - 59:16 And Fess Parker and John Wayne both failed to mention that. Wendy Grossman 59:17 - 59:21 You know, I'm from New York, and they never taught us any of this history. Chris Tomlinson 59:22 - 59:30 Well, they didn't teach it in Texas either, and they still don't. Not until you get to college. Not until you get to college Scoop Sweeney 59:30 - 59:53 I'm always amazed when the people that want to celebrate the Confederacy insist that it wasn't about in Texas, it wasn't about slavery. But all you have to do is read the Articles of Secession. that they put up for getting out of the United States. And it states right there, you know, slavery is the issue Wendy Grossman 59:53 - 59:59 All you have to do is show them the first 30 seconds of gone with the wind. It's right there in the preamble. Chris Tomlinson 01:00:00 - 01:00:28 The Texas Constitution of 1836 is the most militant slave Document in global history. Check out Article Nine. It's it is stunning. In its breadth and depth, in enshrining slavery as a fundamental part of the Republic of Texas. Jon Lebkowsky 01:00:30 - 01:00:36 Yeah. I do have a copy of Gone with the Wind, by the way. Signed copy. Scoop Sweeney 01:00:37 - 01:00:40 And I have a copy of the Forget the Alamo. Jon Lebkowsky 01:00:40 - 01:00:49 So as should everyone. Well, Chris, we're almost out of time. Thanks so much for joining us. Chris Tomlinson 01:00:50 - 01:00:57 Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me, and I'm sorry it took so long to get this worked out, but I'm glad we did. Jon Lebkowsky 01:00:57 - 01:01:01 Yeah, maybe you can come back sometime and we can talk some. More. Chris Tomlinson 01:01:01 - 01:01:04 Oh, they're happy to just let me know. Jon Lebkowsky 01:01:04 - 01:01:16 We always feel like an hour is not quite enough, but we know that if we go much over an hour, people will just drop. So, thanks and thanks to everybody else. Thanks, Wendy. Thanks, Scoop. Thanks, everyone. Scoop Sweeney 01:01:17 - 01:01:31 You can stay in touch with Plutopia at plutopia. io. On Facebook, look for Plutopia News. On Twitter, it's at Plutia. Plutopia. This is the Plutopia News Network, 20 minutes into the future.